(IMPORTANT) Off-Site Grievances & Discord Links

[Alismora 9,436]

Hello Haveners,

 

Due to a number of issues in recent months, we would like to discuss the two most prevalent concerns among the community and our plans to combat them.

 

Off-Site Grievances

 

We have reached an unprecedented amount of reports involving scamming, art theft, and harassment occurring on other websites, Discord being the most common. We want to take a moment to reiterate that our authority does not bleed over onto other platforms, and we cannot control what people do on other websites or penalize them for the behavior just because they have an account on Art Haven. If someone is harassing you or displaying any negative behavior that you feel may violate Discord's rules, please use Discord's reporting tools or contact Discord's customer service team for assistance in resolving the issue. The same applies to any website or platform.

 

Every website has their own policies they enforce and procedures to handle transgressions that occur, and these policies and procedures may differ from ours. Unless there is physical proof that a violation occurred directly on Art Haven, such as a member attempting to sell illegitimate artwork or harass another member via PMs, we don't have jurisdiction for their actions. You wouldn't report a tweet to Instagram or a Toyhouse post to DeviantArt. There are only a couple of extremely rare exceptions to this rule, so rare that we've only ever had to enforce it once in the last 4 years, and would not apply to 99.99% of you, hopefully.

 

At the risk of sounding cliche, the staff team does care about everyone's safety and we want you to have a positive experience on our platform. We are all personally involved in this community in multiple ways, sometimes too involved for our own good, and everything that effects you effects us, too. We are fully aware that there are members who make calculated attempts at avoiding consequences by going off-site, and we are equally as frustrated when we try to help knowing that it's out of our hands. Although we wish we could do more in some instances, we cannot in good conscience punish members for transgressions that do not involve our platform. This type of practice is a slippery slope and can lead to severe unethical actions in the name of justice, whether intentional or not.

 

We appreciate the community for understanding why it's important to utilize the appropriate channels of communication on each individual platform. We fully review every report we receive, even if we know a solution will not be obtainable, so the more we are overwhelmed with off-site related reports, the less time we have to focus on reports that we can resolve.

 

Discord Links

 

Discord has become one of the most abused platforms when it comes to off-site advertising within shops and listings. We have seen an incredible rise of reports for scamming, payment disputes, and the purchase of illegitimate artwork within several Discord servers. Off-site advertising is something Art Haven has only allowed via paid ads, signatures, profiles, and status updates(2017+) since 2012. Off-site advertising is essentially promoting your goods and services provided on another website or app. (i.e. Linking your Discord server and asking members to join to order/purchase art.)

 

We have never allowed off-site advertising in any places outside of those listed above, especially in shops, posts, the marketplace, etc. due to the lack of buyer and seller protection once you leave our website. You are free to buy or sell on any platform you choose, but we cannot provide assistance if the transaction was made off-site, whether or not you were influenced to make that decision by something posted on Art Haven. This includes issues with payment disputes, false charge-backs, or failure of delivery. (This ties into the above grievances explanation.) While we try our best to create a dialogue between members in disputes, our support is ultimately limited whether an agreeable resolution is met or not.

 

The spike in Discord links the past couple of months is what we believe to be the main factor in the increased negative activity/reports and the confusion around members being enticed to make purchases offsite thinking they would still have the protection of Art Haven if there were any issues. Once you leave Art Haven, you are doing everything at your own risk and we are not liable. The team does their best to monitor and moderate all the content on the website, and we appreciate the help of all members who bring things to our attention via the reporting tools, however there isn't an efficient enough way for us to review every piece of content that gets posted to the website no matter how hard we try.

 

The constant abuse with Discord links being posted within shops, public topics, and listings to encourage members to leave Art Haven to buy something has reached a point where it is no longer feasible for us to manually monitor it without being forced to micro-manage shops at the unrealistic rate that is necessary to control the issue. We have chosen to implement an automatic system filter to place any content that contains Discord information into a pending queue for staff approval. This is not something we ever thought we would have to do, but it is currently the only way to prevent the ripple effect that was quickly developing with "I saw x doing it, so why can't I?"

 

We are not changing the rules about social media links or where you can post them. If you want to advertise your Discord server via the appropriate areas listed above, you can, it will just require approval before it shows. (Approval does not take long in most cases.) You can still link Discord via your profile social links as well.  Again, we are not changing any rules, we are being proactive by adopting a new method of auto-moderating to help us enforce the no advertising rule already in place so nothing falls through the cracks. Please let us know if you have any questions or concerns going forward, we'd be happy to assist!

 

Thanks

Art Haven Team

 

[Daniella 1,404]

Y'all are doing wonderful! Thank you for all your hard work keeping the community safe! 

xoxoxoxo

 

[Toxicpunkette 460]

i feel more comfortable messaging people on here plus you guys do a good job  when there is a problem.

[LiLMooMoo 1,194]

I feel better messaging you guys on here then on discord so plz don't over work your self. 

[Drexiy 162]

Yeah yall are doing a great job, and as soon issues occurs do you always handle the problems very fast and good which i really appreciate, Thanks alot for keeping the community safe for us!!! 

Edited July 29, 2020 by Drexiy

[Keeks 128]

On one hand, I am a fan of discord shops as it makes it easier to follow the artists who I am a loyal customer of. On the other, man as a buyer its still a scary thing! 

 

As you guys said there is so little that can be done when brought off AH. There is no monitoring going on and its easy to manipulate discords in someone's advantage. Being a victim of purchasing from "artists" on Discord, who ended up being called out for theft/tracing or more, is an awful feeling.

I am glad you guys are making this a PSA. Gives people more knowledge and at least makes it a safer experience for all if they at least know the risks!  I wish I was educated on the risks myself before investing in Discord shops. 

 

Edited July 30, 2020 by Keeks
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[Alismora 9,436]

15 hours ago, Keeks said:

I am glad you guys are making this a PSA. Gives people more knowledge and at least makes it a safer experience for all if they at least know the risks!

 

I wish we could do more, but unfortunately we have zero control on Discord.  That, coupled with the fact that Discord does not provide any protections to its members get scammed, is why so many people seek our assistance when they have nowhere else to turn.  These people who create shops here, but end up telling people to go to Discord for updates and art delivery/payment think they're clever and that we don't see what they're doing.  These same people are often the ones who are caught selling hundreds or thousands of dollars in illegitimate artwork and act like a deer in headlights because they thought they wouldn't get caught.

 

Our guide, "Scams and How to Avoid Them" is still very relevant, but it will be updated soon to reflect the current market culture.  These will be explained in greater detail in the future, but some quick red flags right now for those who are reading this that could potentially lead to a scam are:

• They refuse to do business anywhere but Discord and force their buyers to use payment methods that do not offer any sort of buyer protection.  (CashApp, Ko-Fi, Venmo, etc.)
• If they do use PayPal, they ask you to send as "friends and family" and refuse "goods & services" payments, voiding the buyer protection PayPal offers.  (You should never pay anyone as friends and family regardless of what website you use.)
• Their art prices are significantly raised in a short amount of time with little to no improvement or reasonable explanation.
• They constantly complain about how "strict" other website's rules are and why they don't want to sell anywhere else.
• They offer styles that do not match the quality of techniques used and prefer users send them photo references in private.  (i.e. They create semi-realism or hyper-realistic details, but the coloring/shading does not match the same level.)
• etc.  There's too many red flags for me to list, but these are usually the most obvious.

If someone is exhibiting most or all of these behaviors, I would do a little research on the seller before spending money.

[Keeks 128]

1 hour ago, Alismora said:

 

I wish we could do more, but unfortunately we have zero control on Discord.  That, coupled with the fact that Discord does not provide any protections to its members get scammed, is why so many people seek our assistance when they have nowhere else to turn.  These people who create shops here, but end up telling people to go to Discord for updates and art delivery/payment think they're clever and that we don't see what they're doing.  These same people are often the ones who are caught selling hundreds or thousands of dollars in illegitimate artwork and act like a deer in headlights because they thought they wouldn't get caught.

 

Our guide, "Scams and How to Avoid Them" is still very relevant, but it will be updated soon to reflect the current market culture.  These will be explained in greater detail in the future, but some quick red flags right now for those who are reading this that could potentially lead to a scam are:

• They refuse to do business anywhere but Discord and force their buyers to use payment methods that do not offer any sort of buyer protection.  (CashApp, Ko-Fi, Venmo, etc.)
• If they do use PayPal, they ask you to send as "friends and family" and refuse "goods & services" payments, voiding the buyer protection PayPal offers.  (You should never pay anyone as friends and family regardless of what website you use.)
• Their art prices are significantly raised in a short amount of time with little to no improvement or reasonable explanation.
• They constantly complain about how "strict" other website's rules are and why they don't want to sell anywhere else.
• They offer styles that do not match the quality of techniques used and prefer users send them photo references in private.  (i.e. They create semi-realism or hyper-realistic details, but the coloring/shading does not match the same level.)
• etc.  There's too many red flags for me to list, but these are usually the most obvious.

If someone is exhibiting most or all of these behaviors, I would do a little research on the seller before spending money.

And thats why I am so thankful for the staff! You guys are absolutely killing it and I appreciate all your efforts to keeping us all safe and happy. 

[LiLMooMoo 1,194]

1 hour ago, Alismora said:

 

I wish we could do more, but unfortunately we have zero control on Discord.  That, coupled with the fact that Discord does not provide any protections to its members get scammed, is why so many people seek our assistance when they have nowhere else to turn.  These people who create shops here, but end up telling people to go to Discord for updates and art delivery/payment think they're clever and that we don't see what they're doing.  These same people are often the ones who are caught selling hundreds or thousands of dollars in illegitimate artwork and act like a deer in headlights because they thought they wouldn't get caught.

 

Our guide, "Scams and How to Avoid Them" is still very relevant, but it will be updated soon to reflect the current market culture.  These will be explained in greater detail in the future, but some quick red flags right now for those who are reading this that could potentially lead to a scam are:

• They refuse to do business anywhere but Discord and force their buyers to use payment methods that do not offer any sort of buyer protection.  (CashApp, Ko-Fi, Venmo, etc.)
• If they do use PayPal, they ask you to send as "friends and family" and refuse "goods & services" payments, voiding the buyer protection PayPal offers.  (You should never pay anyone as friends and family regardless of what website you use.)
• Their art prices are significantly raised in a short amount of time with little to no improvement or reasonable explanation.
• They constantly complain about how "strict" other website's rules are and why they don't want to sell anywhere else.
• They offer styles that do not match the quality of techniques used and prefer users send them photo references in private.  (i.e. They create semi-realism or hyper-realistic details, but the coloring/shading does not match the same level.)
• etc.  There's too many red flags for me to list, but these are usually the most obvious.

If someone is exhibiting most or all of these behaviors, I would do a little research on the seller before spending money.

I had few artists not going to say who that wanted to me to send the money as friends and family. Okay I have only do that for artists  that I call friends. And family  and this was over discord. I feel so much better  and safer when I pay here because  if they do that I screen shoot everything  and will send it to the staff. Im sorry my grammar  and spelling Amis bad it 105 at my job and im hot has balls and we have no ac on the 2 floor 😅 . 

[Alismora 9,436]

Small update for clarification as some members seem to be confused about this.

 

Discord links are not allowed within shops or listings.  If you want to sell on Art Haven, you must allow members to place the order, send payment, and contact you on Art Haven.  Asking them to go off-site for order updates, payment confirmations, or order pickup has never been allowed.  This goes for other platforms too, such as Instagram which is also becoming an increasing issue with artists creating shops and asking members to go to their Instagram to contact them or place an order.  I understand you may have seen an artist do this in the past, but we never condoned it.  This goes for everyone.  Even if it is not your shop or listing, you can't post advertisements on their behalf.  Do not get yourself in trouble for someone else.

 

If you want to sell on Discord, then sell on Discord.  If you want to sell on Instagram, then sell on Instagram.  It is 100% up to you on where you want to sell you art, but you cannot have a shop or a commission listing within the marketplace and use it to advertise your services on another platform.  We are also aware of loopholes members use to get around this rule, such as posting these links under the guise of fake polls and feedback requests that intend to force members off-site.  We vet these links when a report comes in the queue, so there's no point in trying to be deceiving.

 

I apologize for sounding like a broken record, but it is shocking having this information plastered all over the website and yet this is still one of our most abused guidelines.  No public marketplace allows this regardless of what website you use, and we are no exception.

 

Lastly, I want to remind everyone that retaliating against a member for following our safety tips or bringing a concern to the staff team is considered at a minimum of harassment.